Thursday, December 18, 2008

Can of WORMS...Clearly.

So CLEARLY there needs to be some issues addressed. I'm not going to address the blatantly "bitter against the Church for personal reasons and so I'm lashing out at those who try and hold to that standard and furthermore speak out about it" folks. Cause that's a losing battle. No one can convince someone else not to be bitter. If you are one those people - I can't help you.

THAT said.

I think most (okay like 90%) of you missed the point. Missed WHY I was angry. And it all had to do with a little something I call hypocrisy. Gasp! I heard some of you scoff. Oh you think I'M hypocritical? Well - the clincher here is I don't claim to be part of an organization that holds to certain values and standards and then turn around and take action against those values and standards. Yeah. THAT'S what made me so angry. That's what's SO frustrating about the situation. It's frustrating that these women would LABEL themselves - profess to BE SOMETHING (religion, race, whatever) - and then do something so blatantly against that religion and think it's okay. Are. You. Serious? That's the crux of the frustration. That's what so incredibly got under my skin. True - I perhaps should've taken a few deep breaths before a ranted - but honestly - my opinion would've been the same - and I am still frustrated.

Thus - in very very short - because really - we could all argue about this all day and I've already said I'm not out to sooth any ones personal offenses with the LDS Church. Your bitter hatred is your bitter hatred - and for the record I don't HATE any of these women - but I am disappointed and I am disgusted that they would call themselves Mormon Moms and then represent an ENTIRE religion by doing this. How is that right? Regardless if you are Mormon or Jew or black or white or American or African or English or Latin - HOW is it right profess to be part of something, and then take action that clearly goes against it. Hm? Sigh. No, I don't hate these women at all. And I will not patronize them and say "I love them" - but - the point is (and not this matters to them of course) I don't see how they can expect practicing members of the LDS Church - specifically LDS Moms - to really sit back and say "oh that's okay - I won't judge." I won't condone their actions. Someone mentioned something about being Christ-like. True - anger isn't Christlike and I've never professed to be perfect. BUT - I would also never call myself something that I'm clearly not. And I know Christ loves the women who chose to participate - and the man who instigated it. Christ is perfect, and He is the only true judge. However, I also know He wouldn't go buy one of those calendars either. That's the difference. You can love someone without condoning what they do.

The time has come to make some judgements. Not upon the person - but upon what we will tolerate - what we will stand up for - what we WON'T let carry on - what we can't turn a blind eye to - and what we will, ultimately, have to fight against. You can't just pick and choose what standards you abide by - and what you don't. Just because someone stands up and says "No I won't" or "That's not right" doesn't make them hateful, mean, or "old-fashioned." Why can't I stand up and say "That's wrong" - against this calendar - for Prop 8 - against what I've believe to be against anything good and pure in this world - and not suffer THIS kind of backlash? Like I said in my previous post - I knew I would offend people - but I didn't care - because it had to be said. What these women did by taking the name Mormon - and the sacred role Mormon Mother - and sexualizing it is wrong. That doesn't mean I don't deny the sexuality of women - Mormon or not - and we need not be ashamed of beauty. BUT - this calendar that is most clearly appealing to only the lustful desires and base "natural" carnality within us is NOT the right way. A wife and mothers sexuality is meant for husbands - not meant for all his friends to pin up in their garages. How is that respectable? And yes - I will continue to be that bold.

OH - and for the record - I went the the University of Utah thank you very much commenter who asked if I'd gone to BYU - and I was an English Major with a French Minor that included incredibly diverse classes, reading, film, which exposed me to a lot of "the world" or "varying opinions." This post isn't about judgements - this is about hypocrisy and how disgusted I am someone would dare label themselves something that they are CLEARLY not.

OH and hey - ya'll like this post - you should check my posts on Prop 8. There's some good reading.

(I do like hearing the comments. I really do - but it is my blog - and I will post what I deem appropriate.)


Kristen said...

Sweetie, I think you'd better watch who you're calling bitter. Your posts come off exactly like a bitter, single 25 year-old woman, who's been told her whole life that marriage and motherhood should be the end-all/be-all of her existance, but for whatever reason hasn't quite gotten there yet. When you're a 35 year-old mommy of four, and have an opportunity and the body to pose for something like this calendar, then you can start judging these women. Until then, you have no idea where they are coming from, what their motivations were, and what their standing in the church and with their god is.

Again, what have they done that goes against the church and its standards? This is not porn, as much as you'd like to believe it is. It's been mentioned before that you'll more LDS skin than this at a public pool in Utah, or the PCC in Hawaii, or Dancing with the Stars. I'm pretty sure this is not the way they dress daily, or to church, just like swimmers, PCC performers, and DWTS performers. It obviously was fun for them to throw off the LDS mommy persona for a while. When you get to the place, then you can talk smack about them.

I won't go to your prop 8 post. I'm sure it's more of the same. You're still very young, and very inexperienced in life. Someday you may have a child who is gay, like I do, and the things you thought you saw so clearly in life will suddenly cloud over, and you'll have to figure out which way is up again. You may even lost your testimony of the truthfulness of the LDS church. Never say never, it happens quite often, actually.

For the record, I'm a forty year-old mother of four, mother of a gay son, a life-long member of the LDS church, raised in Utah, return missionary, married in the temple, and was a very active member of the church until last year. I recently resigned my membership in the church, for many reasons that don't need to be shared here, but none of the reasons the church would have you believe. Am I bitter? Not in the least. I'm actually happier and more at peace than I've ever been. I wish the same for you, Andrea, no matter what path you need to take to get there.

I'm still enjoying your music :)

Tim said...


I am sorry but your logic escapes me. People don't profess a race. A person does not loose his racial identity no matter how bad they act. Don't you think African Americans would have already expelled OJ Simpson from their group if they could?

As far as religion goes you do not get to decide if a person is "Mormon" or not. Last time I checked you do not have the Priesthood and thus you cannot excommunicate anyone. Even if you could excommunicate them they could still consider themselves LDS, after all you just represent one of various branches of Mormonism. For example many LDS fundamentalists would say YOU are not a true Mormon because you belong to a group which fell into apostacy and rejected polygamy.

Andrea I respect your feelings about the calander. The truth is I would not want my wife or daughter posing for this. I share many of your concerns. What bothers me is your attitude.
You could accomplish much more with these women, your sisters, through kind reasoning than harsh judgement. Your standards and the force of your arguments will not be weakened by engaging these ladies in a non confrontational manner.

From what I have seen members do far more damage to each other than "outsiders" could ever do. It is a group where people far too often eat their own.

Good Luck and best wishes

Jer said...

Why can't I stand up and say "That's wrong" - against this calendar - for Prop 8 - against what I've believe to be against anything good and pure in this world - and not suffer THIS kind of backlash?

Because you're posting in a public forum where there are people to disagree with you, that's why.

But I agree with you Andrea. These women shouldn't call themselves Mormons. They're much too progressive thinking, independent, self-confident, and full of joy to be called Mormon. I still think it's ok to call them mothers, though.

Terry said...

Oh, so you don't hate them, they just disgust you.

A woman's sexuality is her *own*. It's not inherently meant for any man, though she can choose to share it with whomever she pleases. Women are not useless bints whose lives have no worth or meaning unless they're attached to a man in the sexualized role of baby dispenser. That seems to be the part you're having a hard time coming to grips with.

And no, I don't think I'll be reading your posts on prop 8. I'm pretty certain they're nothing but more hateful, judgmental, bigoted filth that you've convinced yourself are somehow a moral stance.

Anonymous said...

I think the response to your post is fairly telling. I don't want to be cruel, but I do want to ask you if you've considered that the other people may have valid points and that you may be incorrect?

You brought up bitterness as an issue on December 16th. Unfortunately, your attitude about the "Mormon Muffins" is a prime example of what comes across as bitterness to an outside observer. You may not actually feel this way, but your post really did come across as sour grapes. They're attractive, they're married, they aren't necessarily ashamed of their sexual side, and they're appearing to be happy. It comes across like that's what's eating at you.

People even in the church handle it differently than each other. Assuming that you are a better Mormon than they are is just ugly. You may feel that way, but your ranting about it just makes YOU look bad, not them. You don't know their personal relationship with God, you know nothing about their personal experience. All you know is that they posed for a photo. You are making a very snarky judgement based on a single action.

While we're on the topic of hypocrisy, you're forgetting a few key points. The 11th Article of Faith can apply even towards other members. How about Matthew: 7 1-6? John: 8 1-11? You claim that you personally are a follower of Jesus, correct? Then why are you so hasty to judge and condemn others? That is the epitome of hypocritical behavior. As I said earlier, you know nothing about these women, nothing of their spirituality, nothing of their actions, yet you hastily made a judgement and made nasty remarks about them.

I'm not trying to be harsh or nasty, but Andrea... you need to understand that you come off very poorly here. You were correct in your earlier post about bitterness: it is terribly unattractive. Introspection is important here, and I would highly recommend taking some time to accurately look at yourself and your motivations. It may be frightening or difficult, but your blog makes it look like you're overdue for doing so.

chancefrisson said...

I get that it's your blog and you'll cry if you want to, but you certainly seem to have a "look at me" personality, and seem to be inviting comment. So...

If you disagree that women in the calendar represent Mormon mothers, then how would you describe Mormon mothers? You haven't done that, but have only said that the calendar depiction is inaccurate. How would you depict Mormon mothers in a calendar (recognizing that the notion is a bit silly to begin with)? How far from traditional Mormon teachings is your own description/depiction of these mothers? How far from your own description/depiction are you actually living, in terms of how you personally appear, think, and behave?

"You can't just pick and choose what standards you abide by - and what you don't."

You likely don't have the same depth of experience with Mormonism that I do if you can't see how well that statement actually condemns typical/common behavior of your church and it's members. All members of your church pick and choose for a variety of conveniences and justifications. Your church itself continues to bend "selectively" ever closer toward a populist view of women and motherhood -- among many other issues, and to shrink from the traditional (and embarrassing) views they once staunchly held and claimed as inalterable revelation.

If you've ever pierced your ears (or anything else), gotten a tattoo, applied fake nails, dressed in revealing clothing (this includes whoring your look up for a costume party), adorned in excessive jewelry (especially to fit in, or to be "cool"), had cosmetic surgery (or longed to have it), had an abortion (for any reason), etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, then you're violating the historical standard of mothers and women in the LDS church and should work on removing the beam from thine own eye before going off about something for which you are clearly no authority.

Old Salty said...

I love Kimya Dawson! I thought I was the only one that liked her. You have a great taste in music! All of your music choices are awesome.

And anyone that likes Sylvia Plath goes up points in my book too :)

(light) Black And Decker said...

Wow. That was a lot of harrassment coming from all those comments posted on your last blog. I'm just hoping to give you a boost and let you know that I totally agree with what you are saying, and am glad you are willing to take the hit when everyone starts attacking. It's funny that so many people are willing to attack the church and it's guidelines for women and their roles, when they obviously have no understanding of what it means to be a woman in this church. To be a woman is to have probably the highest honor. In no way are we degraded or worth less value than men. But since we will never be able to convince others of that, I guess the real important thing is to make sure we understand it ourselves and know who we are and what we stand for.

Mrs. Jones said...

I luv ya girl! You rock my socks. I read your first post about this situation and was thrilled that someone actually has the guts to post exactly what they think about a situation. I commend you, not condone you. Anyone who condones you for speaking your mind, needs to remember the constitution. Loves!

SusyQ said...

You said; This post isn't about judgements - this is about hypocrisy and how disgusted I am someone would dare label themselves something that they are CLEARLY not.

Are you reading what you are posting? You are contradicting yourself on this, my dear....